From Routine to Revolutionary: Ragav Jagannathan on Generative AI

Revolutionizing Human Productivity with Generative AI: Insights from Ragav Jagannathan

In this episode of The Human Code, host Don Finley welcomes Ragav Jagannathan, a globally recognized expert in IT and founder of Chaos Software Technologies and Clobot Incorporated. With over 28 years of experience and involvement in more than 300 SharePoint implementations, Ragav shares his insights on leveraging AI to enhance human productivity. The discussion explores generative AI, mesh intelligence, and practical applications of AI in professional services. The episode delves into how AI can automate repetitive tasks, improve decision-making, and support meaningful work. Ragav also introduces KLapper, a virtual assistant designed to integrate corporate knowledge and simplify tasks, and addresses ethical considerations in AI. This episode is packed with valuable insights that will inspire you to rethink how AI can transform personal and professional life.

00:00 Introduction to The Human Code 

00:49 Meet Ragav Jagannathan: AI Visionary 

01:18 The Power of Generative AI 

04:46 KLapper: Revolutionizing Productivity 

14:07 Mesh Intelligence: Connecting the Dots 

23:27 Ethical Considerations in AI 

27:10 Preparing for an AI-Driven Future 

32:34 Conclusion and Sponsor Message

Transcript

Don Finley: 0:00

Welcome to The Human Code, the podcast where technology meets humanity, and the future is shaped by the leaders and innovators of today. I'm your host, Don Finley, inviting you on a journey through the fascinating world of tech, leadership, and personal growth. Here, we delve into the stories of visionary minds, Who are not only driving technological advancement, but also embodying the personal journeys and insights that inspire us all. Each episode, we explore the intersections where human ingenuity meets the cutting edge of technology, unpacking the experiences, challenges, and triumphs that define our era. So, whether you are a tech enthusiast, an inspiring entrepreneur, or simply curious about the human narratives behind the digital revolution, you're in the right place. Welcome to The Human Code. In this episode, we are excited to welcome raga. Jay nothin. A globally recognized expert in it. And the founder of chaos, software technologies and CLO bought incorporated with over 28 years of experience. Roger has been instrumental in over 300 SharePoint implementations for major law firms and fortune 100 companies. His innovative work focuses on leveraging AI to enhance human productivity and streamline business processes. Today we will share how generative AI is revolutionizing human productivity by automating repetitive tasks and allowing us to focus more on meaningful work. The concept of mesh intelligence and how it connects various pieces of information to provide comprehensive insights and improve. Decision-making. Practical applications of AI in professional services, including document analysis, scheduling and expense management, and the positive impact that had on our users. Join us as we delve into these fascinating topics with Rajiv. This episode is packed with valuable insights and will aspire you to rethink how AI can enhance your personal and professional life. I'm here with Raghav I got to say that I'm very excited to be sitting here talking to you today. There's a lot that you have going on that I think, will benefit really the world and the people that we talk to. so to kick this off, what is it that got you excited to be talking about humanity and technology? And then again, how'd you get to the point of having these conversations?

Ragav Jagannathan: 2:24

Sure. My name is Raghav Jayanathan. I've been in the industry for just over a couple of decades, and I'm passionate about how technology can really change how human beings work. And that's been involved in setting up a couple of companies that really focuses on improving driving human productivity using the power of technology. In the last four years, probably five years or so, I've been more focused on, artificial intelligence and how, using the power of computing. How, normal recursive tasks, or even processes could be automated so that, repetitive tasks, repetitive chores, that humans typically perform, can be looked at and improved and maybe, improved. Get the human, to get repurposed to do higher, more intelligent tasks and those repetitive tasks. And that's when my journey started around 2018, where I started thinking about this and I was involved in starting a company called Cobot that focused on, at that point, using the power of simple AI, which is what was the previous AI, how AI could be really useful for, Decoupling or enabling the human, if you will, to with these repetitive tasks, and just redundant repetitive tasks that needs to happen every day. so hence my AI journey started, and obviously today, especially over the last 2 years, I've been very deeply involved with the power of journey AI, and how, the evolution from simple AI to journey AI and the ability for journey AI to really, not just automate routine tasks and provide the knowledge that you need at the fingertips, but it can actually learn, um, what a human typically learns, and truly become a companion, a virtual companion for the human. So I've been heavily focused on that, especially over the last two years, and I would say especially over the last 18 months, to really look at How to create very powerful, virtual companions, virtual assistants that, really layers, if I'm going to say, has to some extent of the power of human intelligence built inside it, that can truly act as, an assistant for me. That can do things on my behalf, or it can serve up knowledge to me on demand when I need it, where I need it anywhere, anytime. So that's really been my focus for the last 18 months and to support that. I've been deeply involved in, from a, both an engineering perspective, architecture perspective, to create a product called Clapper, that we launched in the market just a couple of months ago. And the feedback's been. Revolutionary and really life changing for me.

Don Finley: 5:01

That's incredible. Now, what is Clapper doing? how is it bridging that divide? How is it helping to enhance that creativity?

Ragav Jagannathan: 5:09

Yeah. So as I said, my journey with AI started almost five years ago. And throughout the journey, one of the things I learned with the previous iteration of AI is that AI was very heavily dependent on human training. on, basically getting taught by him and word by word how to and when to and basically literally everything's tuned in terms of how it is and so on. But with Genevieve AI the whole landscape changed because now, the learning model is so huge and it's got so much learnings inside it. What we are able to do now is to basically, with our technology, especially with Clapper. Corporates can simply point a Collaborative Assistant, like a virtual assistant, into their own knowledge sources. For example, a knowledge source that might live in your document management system, or your customer relationship management system, or simply your documents, your corporate information and whatnot. You can simply upload them, or you can simply connect Collaborative Assistant to those systems. And what happens is that with the power of journey of AI, Clapper is able to read that content, understand the content, like how me as a fellow, as a human or my fellow human beings would literally read it, try to parse it, try to make sense of the content based on his tremendous knowledge base that is trained on till March. And basically extract that intelligence like how humans do in terms of coming to conclusions on what the data actually means. So that now, of me reading, let's say, a Supreme Court citation on a specific topic, I can simply ask Harper to read it for me, and I can ask a question. So truly, Using it as a virtual assistant, like a virtual council for me.

Don Finley: 6:55

Okay. So Clapper is helping to process information, Q and A on it, as well as analysis, summarization. And so really that that augmented intelligence, That it helps us to accomplish. goals as well. what got you interested in creating a product in that space?

Ragav Jagannathan: 7:14

So I think that, as I said, over the last five years, I've really been focused on looking at ways of elevating human intelligence. And I truly believe that, AI is not going to replace humans. I believe that. AI is gonna help humans elevate their intelligence and truly find the position in a work society in terms of where they add value. AI truly is a technology, especially on technology today. The journey of AI technology, AI has evolved truly to an extent that it has the ability to read those books, read those articles, read that content, understand database tables, Even write code for you, like literally programming. basically the plumbing, the nuts and bolts, from a content perspective, it's able to parse Learn, understand, and even rewrite content. so what this meant, especially for some of the industries we operate in, especially for legal, professional services, very content heavy environments, we've seen that, example, in a law firm, an attorney's productivity kind of skyrocket because, all of a sudden, let's say I'm reading a large citation document, say, 600 pages long. It has references to multiple previous citations or other industry terms, especially energy sector, for example. rather than going and going to Google and stuff like that, I can simply ask, the assistant, my assistant, which lives on my, where work happens, let's say my Windows desktop or on my Teams or Zoom or wherever when my work is happening. And I can simply ask those questions right away and I get instant answers, instant gratification. so yeah, so that really got me excited in terms of how Jeremy and I has the ability to learn that content, and truly become an intelligent companion for me, as opposed to me asking that, to my colleague over an email or simply spending enormous amounts of time doing research on Google. but that's just one aspect. There's other aspects of Clapper, product that we also tackle, for example, performing repetitive tasks, which is a topic I started talking about, which I'm happy to reflect.

Don Finley: 9:16

Yeah, I'd love to talk about the performing repetitive tasks. I know where you get into agenic AI, and giving AI, a goal to accomplish, having to figure out the tasks and then using tools to, Accomplish those tasks. how is Clapper fitting into that environment as well?

Ragav Jagannathan: 9:33

Yeah. so from our perspective, we look at a virtual companion, a virtual assistant, as the name implies, it not only does Q& A for you, it also needs to do stuff for you. for example, obviously it can't do grocery yet. or do your laundry, whatever yet. but, but from a software perspective, it understands what you want. For example, Clapper understands, has access to your calendar. Clapper has access to your email. obviously, we'll talk about security and those things later, but, with the right permissions, it has access to your calendar, your email, your schedule. so as you're reading a document, and you see a reference to, let's say a specific person in your firm that you want to connect with, right then and there you can ask Clapper, to find out, Hey, is Bob available? Now to speak to me and instantly Clapper says, yeah, yes. Do you want me to connect you to him? and I say, sure you can. I can't do it a call right now, but can you set up a meeting with him tomorrow at three, 3:00 PM Eastern, and boom, it sets it up. or even a more personal use case, for example, I want to go and up, paid time off, and I can simply ask Clapper, Hey, how much need do I have left, during the course of my day? and Clapper has the ability to connect to that. a human resources system in my firm and say, look, you have five days left. would you like to apply for a leave? And I say, sure, go ahead and apply for a leave on these dates. And boom, it's done for me. Or even automated tasks. For example, if I'm involved in expense claim management, for example, I have a plethora of expensive travel claims to approve, especially I'm a sales VP or whatever. you can delegate that to cloud. So you have the ability to say, okay, if the expenses are on, around this, bandwidth or whatever, and the band, auto approve it or whatever. so it can do stuff on behalf of you again, reducing the administrative load. and especially for professional services firms like ours, where billable hours important, it helps us, free up those administrative tasks so that we can focus on billable hour.

Don Finley: 11:29

That's incredible. Now you said that you've gotten a lot of positive feedback on Clapper already. what's the time that it takes for somebody to learn how to basically interact with Clapper, Like how natural is it? Or what's the extension of getting the tools integrated?

Ragav Jagannathan: 11:47

That's a good question. we have designed a tool, I call it a business tool designed by a business person. so we truly believe this, that. power of JourneyBI, one of the reasons why ChatGPD has 300 million users or whatever, 300 400 million users within the launch is because it has simplicity built inside it. for example, it had a very simple interface that I can simply ask type of question and it interacts with you like a human. so simplicity is the name of the game and when we design user experience, We think about how normal human being with minimal to no IT knowledge can build this virtual assistant and the power of our software today, collaborative with the UI has been designed in a way that it can be, it just can be used by anybody. You don't need a MIT degree to work with Clapper You could be a Harvard graduate as a lawyer, and you could design your assistant with Clapper. You could be a, professional assistant of A CEO, a non-technical person, and you can design an assistant with Clapper. So we made sure that we've designed a product that helps you use the Power Journey ai. Feed that model with the content that I wanted to learn, teach it the tasks that I wanted to perform in a repetitive way or perform on behalf of me in a more simplistic drag and drop way. And you just have to believe me when I say this, it's incredibly easy to use for anybody, not just IT folks or power users.

Don Finley: 13:20

you've hit on a number of key points here, It's gotta be easy. It's gotta be intuitive, I once saw when the iPad first came out, a three year old using an iPad, and she was opening up apps, she was moving things around, she was zooming in, pushing things around, and then I saw her half an hour later with a magazine. And she was punching at the pictures trying to get them to open up because that was intuitively The ipad just was naturally that user friendly and the magazine wasn't I think we're going to see that same type of behaviors coming out in ux design for AI tools as well. And so it's nice to hear that you're thinking about that extension as well for what you're doing. one term that you brought up earlier in our pre show was Mesh Intelligence. And I think it came out when you were talking about the connection of, you with your coworker, finding out if they're available and then making it a go. But I would love to expand upon that idea. Cause it's just such an interesting way to describe.

Ragav Jagannathan: 14:27

it really is. so Mesh Intelligence, by the way, Mesh is something that it's not new, the idea around, starting with a, honestly, I'm smiling because it's universal and goes beyond science, From a, universe perspective, and I'm a science, But, but just be focused on your question. So the idea of a mesh is to start with one dimension of the truth, So really looking at one point, and then really kind of, getting, all of a sudden a, kind of, visibility or vision or, an array of facts around that one truth and then you just go Along whatever path you go along, and then you find, uncover, new facts about something that you didn't even think about. and it happens all the time and NASA scientists, they look at photos from the universe and so on. the idea of mesh really comes from there that, for example, if I'm really interested in generative AI, let's just, focus on the topic, And I search for the word JourneyBI, And because I just want to know what it is because everybody's talking about it and not everybody knows about it. They've heard of it, but not everybody knows what it is. So I start with that. Let's say in my corporate, on my Windows laptop or on my intranet, I literally search for the word JourneyBI. just curious, like what's going on with my firm and JourneyBI? And boom, some articles comes up and, for example, Clapboard can serve up all the content, that is relevant, relevant to JourneyBI, but it also now says, okay, by the way, have you, thought about, how JourneyBI can, Learn your documents and you go okay. yeah, I have a bunch of documents in my laptop I click on the link and it now tells you more about All the different, connections that you can have, you know between your documents and whatnot and also gives you additional information on additional, systems that you can connect with. It's a, SharePoint or whatnot. Now you get more curious, You click on that, key, fact like SharePoint, intelligence with Geneve AI, and now it opens up a Pandora's box. Now it's talking about, okay, so here's all the. different documents. Here's all the people who specialize in your firm in this topic. Do you want me to connect you with that? And now I get more curious, and based on social distancing, you can also see that a person, I'm in New York and a person's five miles away from me in New York, working in the same organization. Who specializes in SharePoint Generated AI. And all of a sudden I get very curious and I just simply tap on his name and boom, using Mesh you can now dive more deeper into him and all his different assets that he's made public, for example, or she's made public in terms of the content that he's written on the topic. And it also exposes you to experts, other experts in the organization or related experts who are so think about, one curious point I start with, and all of a sudden, this incredible mesh, very intelligent mesh, that's been exposed to me, about my data, that is already there in my organization. But Gene, I is able to understand and really expose that and I call that mesh intelligence.

Don Finley: 17:23

I'm building a picture in my mind as you're describing this. And we all have our own sort of intelligence. That's like our tree of knowledge. And the kind of groups intelligence basically makes up the forest. And you're describing an intelligence. That's like jumping from tree to tree, like a monkey running through the forest, like connecting the dots and collecting the information and tying together the vines of information to help you give that path. But I think it's such a beautiful concept and like I, to share some of my own vision for where we're going to the future. we've seen over the last 40, 50 years that business sizes have gotten smaller in order to get to let's say 10 million in revenue, In the eighties and nineties, I probably needed about 50 people. I had all the services under my, one house. Whereas the advent of SaaS and infrastructure as a service, AWS, et cetera, and then the internet has helped to drive that down to smaller and smaller numbers. And today we're sitting at, you can do 10 million by yourself. You can, you couldn't read, it, there's probably few use cases that, that really works, but you could still do 10 million with a very small team today of under five. Really, but you're outsourcing your services, you're outsourcing some other sides to other organizations. There's still probably 50 people involved, but the divide of where they're at is not under your corporate umbrella. AI, I think can help us to become more purpose driven around like what you want to deliver as a person and like your purpose and your creativity. And then having that AI to, to link you up with the people who either a need that Or the services and people that you need in order to make your dream come to fruition. And that mesh intelligence idea that you're talking about is really that linking piece. It's the glue, the mycelium that network.

Ragav Jagannathan: 19:19

completely agree. Now, I think from, the angle that we take, with, especially, with Clapper and a few other journey AI tools out there, even Microsoft Azure opening, I co piloted, to some extent, even, GPT, Furu, uh, again, the idea behind these models, the Norage language model is that it has the ability to, your data beyond imagination. we can't, as humans, we can't even imagine the that goes in terms of the exponential learning that happens. Especially, for example, you can simply give a document, I'm stuck in the context of Clapper. Just to hone in on this mesh intelligence. in the kind of a context of a corporate intelligence, That's a very large from 10, 000 plus people, and I could be just as one person, just a software developer. And I've just uploaded a document that talks about, SharePoint and JDVI. Microsoft, awesome technological SharePoint has been around for 20 plus years, and I wrote a nice little thought leadership article and I put it on mention, with the power of, JDVI engine and large language model, When you run that model on pages that lives on my internet, and one of the pages it learns is this wiki article that I published as one person with this 10, 000 people organization, see a model like that smart, is able to learn not just the data on that page that I wrote, but it's also able to learn and extract relationships between all the pages it learns, between all the content on the pages it learns, between all the words. on the page within the content subset that it learns. And it also has the ability to create relationships. So for example, in this mesh technology, if I can ask a question like, okay, tell me the SharePoint, Jeremy, I expert in my firm, which has 10, 000 people, it not only is able to understand that, Hey, Raghav is the person who created that article, But because it's crawled through all the documents in the internet and pages, and it's extracted the relationship based on intelligence that it already has in its engine, it now has the ability to say, oh, by the way, you might also want to check out these five articles and these five people, and they are also pretty smart in these two different topics. and you don't even have to do anything. so that's the power of this technology, because this technology has the ability to Learn, extract, and also decipher all these patterns, And that's the evolution of the mesh that I'm talking about,

Don Finley: 21:48

And I think I just love the idea that like, hey, you're dealing with something that isn't, dumb. to put it just bluntly, it is actually looking at the data. It's processing it for you. Because even if you go through a Google search today, you're clicking on a link, you're trying to find out if it actually has the information you're looking for. you're going two, three times, maybe you hit the second page. And by the time you get to the middle of the second page, you've probably given up. Whereas like Clapper and then Generative AI has the capability of finding that information inside of your own sources, which also isn't available to you through any search today. and so now you're talking about having a brand voice. You're talking about having a company expert. That's that person that can run you around the organization, helping you to find the information that you need, but also to synthesize. Summaries amongst documents and quite possibly also finding the ability to, decipher new information from it. So I was speaking to a university professor one time and, he described himself as sitting in the field of mathematics, but in the place where nobody wanted to go. And so there was two lines of study and he was like, I fit right in the middle. And he goes, it's actually nice because what you end up doing is all this work has created all this knowledge is extending, but the line of knowledge in his field, in the intersection wasn't advancing as fast, but he could just basically cherry pick between. And I think as humans, there's so much information that's presented to us every day. having tools to help us sift through all of that is incredibly powerful. are there use cases for AI that you feel like we, we shouldn't be venturing into? this is more of like the ethical side of what is our responsibility as developers and business people supporting this push.

Ragav Jagannathan: 23:40

sure. I'm going to answer your question. I just want to give you one more example on the mesh in just about 30 seconds. And this is so important because this is a real life example from a firm that we're working with right now, where, as that GPT, OpenAI, Oro, and any of these technologies, Lama, Gemini, they all have vision. Vision Search is incredible. Obviously, this is tied to your next question, by the way. There's a reason I'm talking about it. so Vision Search, this firm is able to simply, this is not a valid use case, but we're testing it just to see how this pans out. And this is incredible. We had a user, take literally a photo of a mathematical equation. And They wrote on a piece of paper, It's a pretty complex situation, way above my pay grade, like a calculus equation. And, and, with Clapper, they were simply able to, take a photo of that and upload to Clapper. And Clapper uses OpenAI for revision. it was able to, understand that, equation and simply as a person, and this is just, we're testing the software to see how vision works and, sure it, it solved the problem. Of course, it solved the problem, it goes like boom, here are the steps and solves the problem, but the fun didn't stop there because it knew. It learned the data about the firm's personnel in terms of the experience they have, the skills they have, from the HR systems and from, the Active Directory and whatnot. it was not only able to solve the problem, we were amazed. It actually came back and said, oh, by the way, Mr. Joblog has tagged himself as an expert in calculus because it's a 5, 000 people organization. do you want me to connect you with him? And we were like, wait, what? so it actually knew because it had the data. so it was able to solve the equation and it's also offering us help. And this is a beautiful mesh intelligence coming in play where. And obviously there's some magic we did in Clapper to make this happen. But the point is that it was able to surface that intelligent, solve the problem for me, surface experts in an organization that can further help me with that equation. And that's just blows my mind away. So anyway, I wanted to share that with you. and to answer the question you actually asked me in terms of responsibility, ethical concerns. Obviously with Vision, the problem is, Enfold. Because, for example, with Vision, any framework, any modern GPT frameworks, large language model frameworks, they all support Vision Search. Meaning that it has the ability to parse through images and extract data points that, you probably didn't even know of. so those obviously, opens up ethical concerns and vendors like us, like with Clapper, we actually have filters. built inside our orchestration engine to make sure that look you can't just upload somebody's photos obviously You know, we take care of profanity and nudity and all those things, we immediately delete them or we flag them and say not inappropriate, whatnot. But beyond that, the ability to share like private photos in there and ask it to ask the engine to analyze the photo and tell us who their person is or where they live or tell us information about them on the internet. so any engine like Clapper or any JDBI engines should. Really take care of that, in our opinion, just can make sure and I think companies are, taking it pretty seriously. Microsoft and OpenAI and Google, they do a pretty good job of, making sure that, the uploaded content does not violate people's privacy, but yeah,

Don Finley: 27:10

Now, as you're seeing more tools work its way into the professional settings and our personal lives, any advice that you would give to the younger generations as far as what skills they can develop to be, more in line with the coming age of AI?

Ragav Jagannathan: 27:28

absolutely. I give this, lecture almost on a weekly basis to my own kids, I think some of the kids are currently in high school and, when they graduate in four years. the jobs that we know of today, obviously they'll exist, but, there's gonna be an evolution of, the jd the job description itself. for example, today, you might be hiring a project coordinator, A person who's, decent paid job in a good starter job pays like 80 90 k in New York. And, You basically manage your project under project manager. You're on people's tasks and making sure that everybody's completing the timesheet and everybody's doing the task, initiating the meetings on behalf of the project manager, coordinating with all the team members and clients and doing all that. But guess what? Clapper can do all that, right? So it can do all of that. so the question then is, are you going for a job? Are you studying for doing a degree in university that's teaching you how to do that? Or are you studying in university? And that's something universities should take a note of. who are teaching that human, that student, how to work with AI, I often have this, ethical, philosophical discussion with a lot of students, who I coach on AI, at Clapper. We hire them as interns. we look for, these students come in and say, look, we are not allowed to use, Chagi PD in our university. We are not allowed to do that in our school. But I say, why? So I really question like why, because the idea behind JourneyBI, ChachiBT, for example, is to really help you think through a problem better, obviously plagiarism is an issue and stuff like that. But what I'm trying to say here is that I think the jobs today, what we know of. in terms of the grant work that we do, they are going to be gone. in terms of, scheduling meetings or taking notes or kind of low level tasks, like repetitive tasks, those are going to be gone in 10 years from now. a person who's in middle school or high school today, when they graduate in six, seven years from now, those jobs don't exist. so they're gone. So what we need to do is to educate our fellow young humans to, really look at, okay, so where do you fit in this new world? This is the AI driven world, So the one thing where I see, training go in and we train our own staff on this is obviously you heard of prompt engineering. it gets thrown out so much out there. Oh, people post on LinkedIn, I've completed this course on prompt engineering. I don't think, most people understand, but most people also don't understand what prompt engineering means. but again, it's a great, it's a great, area to focus on. so basically, just in simple English, prompts helps a Jerebiya engine basically understand and also to some extent, fine tune its response back to you. So a prompt basically is a very smart question or an input that it can give to an engine so that the engine reacts and responds back to the way you want it to react and respond back. and so that it can jo, it can do the job that you intended for it to do better. That's the idea beyond prompt engine, of course, so we, we believe that. younger generation should focus on learning how to interact with it. And I think that training starts today. It starts with using technology chat gt not looking at chat, gt or clapper or co-pilot as evil, things. it should really be like, look, let's use this technology. Let's ascend as humans. Let's build on the intelligence it already has. to actually learn from and see where we fit in, so yeah, I think prompt engineering is a great, focus area. Also coding, grunt coding. Grunt coding is no longer needed, like grunt coding basically writing like core libraries and green data model. You can simply ask a llama or a GPT or even Anthropic. Literally, it can create data models. It can write responsive, mobile user experience code for you. So think about that. so what does a web application developer do now? a guy who just graduated, so much money is paid. What does he do now? but the point is there, there are, we believe that, where you fit in at that point is basically looking at, ways of improving how the interactions work because machine can only spit out, what I call it, like predefined, templates, for example, we are humans, We build a home. We never live in a template home. We always customize it, so all the UX developers, the full stack developers, they had to find their own sweet zone. okay, you know what, if I focus on UX, how do I work with JourneyBI spit code, How do I make it better? But yeah, so that's where, that's a couple of two, things that comes to my mind when we talk about evolution,

Don Finley: 31:51

That's absolutely fantastic. And I think, focusing on a, how can you utilize these tools? How can you get familiar with them? What skill sets can you develop that make more proficient with them? And then I think additionally, you're talking about Hey, try different things. and grow through the experience of using them. Even if like in your university, you're not able to use those tasks. Like you and I probably grew up in a time when calculators had a similar sort of dysfunction to them, right? Like we had to do some things without the calculator, but then most of the time it was like, Hey, use it. It's a tool that's available to you. I gotta say, it's been a real pleasure sharing this space with you and having the conversations today. So thank you so much for being on today.

Ragav Jagannathan: 32:32

of course, thank you so much for having me.

Don Finley: 32:34

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