Rethinking Education in an AI World with Brennan Pursell

Navigating AI and Education: A Conversation with Brennan Pursell

In this episode of The Human Code, host Don Finley welcomes Brennan Pursell, an AI and data ethics expert, to discuss the intersection of technology and humanity. Brennan shares his unique journey from historical research to AI innovation and education. The conversation explores the challenges and opportunities posed by AI in reshaping education and work, emphasizing the importance of integrating technology with human creativity and responsibility. They also delve into the societal impacts of technology, the role of education, and the complexities of preparing students for a rapidly changing digital landscape.

00:00 Introduction to The Human Code 

00:49 Meet Brennan Pursell: AI and Data Ethics Evangelist 

01:55 Brennan's Journey: From History to AI 

04:52 The Evolution of Education in the Age of AI 

07:23 Challenges and Opportunities in Modern Education 

10:23 The Role of AI in Shaping the Future 

15:01 The Calculator Controversy 

15:21 AI's Creative Potential 

15:43 Real-Time Physics in AI 

16:46 Deepfake Dangers 

17:47 The Essence of AI 

20:44 Education and Individuality 

23:04 The Mental Health Crisis 

25:12 Adapting to AI in Education 

26:22 Finding Clarity in Chaos 

27:27 The Future of Higher Education 

28:46 Closing Thoughts and Gratitude

Sponsored by FINdustries
Hosted by Don Finley

Transcript

Don Finley: 0:00

Welcome to The Human Code, the podcast where technology meets humanity, and the future is shaped by the leaders and innovators of today. I'm your host, Don Finley, inviting you on a journey through the fascinating world of tech, leadership, and personal growth. Here, we delve into the stories of visionary minds, Who are not only driving technological advancement, but also embodying the personal journeys and insights that inspire us all. Each episode, we explore the intersections where human ingenuity meets the cutting edge of technology, unpacking the experiences, challenges, and triumphs that define our era. So, whether you are a tech enthusiast, an inspiring entrepreneur, or simply curious about the human narratives behind the digital revolution, you're in the right place. Welcome to The Human Code. Today, we're joined by Brennan Pursell, an AI and data ethics, evangelist whose career spans from historical research to cutting edge AI innovation as the author of outsmarting, AI, power, profit and leadership in the age of machines. Brendan brings a unique blend of humanities and technology to the conversation. With his roots and academia and his passion for education, Brendan dives into the challenges and opportunities posed by AI in reshaping, the future of learning and work. Is thought provoking insights, challenge us to rethink how technology integrates with human agency, creativity and responsibility, and an ever changing digital world. I'm here with Brennan Pursell. Gotta say, Brennan, thank you so much for being on the show today. And additionally, what really got you interested in the intersection of humanity and technology?

Brennan Pursell: 1:39

Well, that's just humanity. Humanity is humanity because it uses technology. Okay, I get the point. Otters can take rocks and bang up abalone on their chests and monkeys can take sticks and stick them into ant nests and pull it off and get them, do that kind of thing. But that's what people do. It's just what the people do. And my early background, I'm a fossil. My early background was in history, which is just about people in places over time, dealing with life. And, man, we're an amazing species, we don't have to philosophize in that direction. So it's always been there from anything, from music making, just the instruments. Like most people have never been close. To a viola or a violin. They've never held one or like they've never been the same room as a really good oboe that is humanity and technology.

Don Finley: 2:25

Ah, so you're going, it's the art and the essence, the dance of life kind of, perspective that you have with

Brennan Pursell: 2:31

Well, for my story, it was like, that was the early approach with it. And then of course, so I'm a fossil. So I was in the college, I was in college when the first IMAX came out. I was like, Oh my God, this solves the footnotes problem. I just love this thing. It's terrific. And then I went on and got a PhD in history. when I majored in history, I thought it was cool. And it was like one of the biggest majors at Stanford. And I thought that was, it was totally normal. You could do anything with it. And then I wanted to be an educator. It's just who I am. I love learning stuff. And I love passing it on. It's just something I have to do. this was in the 90s and I got my PhD at Harvard and then went off to this DeSales University. I'm in Eastern Pennsylvania and they needed somebody like me. And because I'm always learning. and computers were getting more and more interesting. And history was just getting less and less interesting to me. And then the great financial crisis of 2007, 8, 9 hit. I didn't know what the hell was going on. So I started doing an MBA on the side. and just also doing some stuff in like basic coding. And so when I was done with my MBA, yeah, I kept teaching. but I started doing a little more business teaching. I was consulting on the side. I helped out with a document management, company and just really interested in text and how text was handled. And then part of that, I fell in with some, fellow graduates of mine who wanted to start this little consultancy down in Alexandria, Virginia. And one of these guys said, You really should be paying attention to this AI stuff. and at that time, Andrew Yang had started Coursera and he put up his machine learning, his deep learning, and I saw that and my jaw hit the floor. I thought, Oh my God, these machines can really Almost learn like people. I'm really into learning, machine. And just seeing that, the whole cat thing, detecting a cat and how and back propagation, ka ching. Wow. This is really cool. I do not have the math background, to do this stuff, but that's what really made the lights go on for me. I wrote a book with him as a coauthor. I was supposed to be the ghost. but the roles flipped. but anyway, the book came out, it was done in 2018 and also it set me on my mission at the sales university, which is all of education is gonna change. It just is. And as an educator, it's my mission to prepare 18 to 21, 22 for the job market, which itself is changing now. So we have to change what we do.

Don Finley: 4:52

I appreciate the, Even just the brevity of it, because I know that you could go on for hours on this like topic of how you got here and you have such a dynamic background around the history of this, your deep learning, activities. But I really want to touch on the educational aspect of it. The world is changing so quickly when it comes to what AI is capable or the hype of it as well. The implementation is a little bit slower yet at the same time, we're pressure that's coming about from either integrating this new tool into our lives and additionally reframing how we're doing education. What are the, some of the biggest challenges that you see from the, really the student side of this?

Brennan Pursell: 5:35

institutional inertia

Don Finley: 5:38

Yeah.

Brennan Pursell: 5:39

and this is the big, sorry, I'm a trained historian, this is just, people like to change once they get older and more comfortable, they. Dig in. And the nature of bureaucracies is to resist change. Oh my God. it's, so students have to deal with these bureaucracies that are telling them, don't mess around with this. Don't explore this. Don't get into this. There are risks that I don't know about you, but I think one of the biggest risks out there for education, we can't abandon education. We can't. Can all the school districts. What COVID showed us is how valuable it is for the state, for all society to have a teacher in a classroom. need it. Economies need it. Communities need it. Companies need it. You're nodding. We're in agreement. So that's not going to go away, but what they teach and how they teach and how kids, what kids should learn and how they should learn to be critical. To solve problems when they have this, these tools that can basically do all the stuff that they were told that they need to do. the big problem.

Don Finley: 6:47

And so you and I are somewhat fossils and I love this because most of my business partners are 10, 15 years older than me, right? and so

Brennan Pursell: 6:55

yourself

Don Finley: 6:56

I'm the young, I'm the young one in the Institute.

Brennan Pursell: 6:58

and you call yourself a fossil?

Don Finley: 7:00

No, I don't. But at the same time I hear you using that term and I understand the relationship between your students and where you're at, but you and I are only a couple of years apart at most.

Brennan Pursell: 7:11

I think I got a couple of decades on you.

Don Finley: 7:12

decades. Okay. Oh, you're, oh yeah, nevermind. You are. Nevermind. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. I'll give you a thumbs up. I'll it.

Brennan Pursell: 7:18

let me be the fossil. you may feel like one in the field you're in, but anyway.

Don Finley: 7:23

so basically, what's the point of education though? I think that's what we have to come back to. You said there is so

Brennan Pursell: 7:28

of education? You, there's the whole social side. Do you have kids? Kids have to grow up and get out of the house. They can't, the biggest disaster, and we see this across country, is the number of adults that come back to their parents basements and they game themselves to death. That's not good. Not good for a society, a country, anything.

Don Finley: 7:54

I think it's doubled over the last 20 years is like, yeah, we went from 10 to 20 percent of young adults that go back.

Brennan Pursell: 8:01

and three generation families. Nothing against it. Works great in some cultures. But, what, for my students. These are young adults and they're in that transition. They want to get away from mom and dad. They need to make it on their own. They have to compete. We both agree that corporations don't give a damn about them. Corporations will use them and when they're no longer useful, they will be jettisoned. It's just the nature of it. And so they need to compete. They need to deal with this world that we, that, that is developing around them and the institutions that should prepare them are schlepping. and it starts in, with elementary school, I wouldn't really go there. I think kids should do a lot with pencil and paper and basic reading and math and stuff like that. But in middle school is where a lot of changes happen, should be happening. And then, it's been said for many years. The American education is really pretty good, but the longer you stay in it, the worse it gets. the public's from K to 12, from K to 12. If you just look at like test results. but then we have our universities, which are incredibly

Don Finley: 9:01

incredible. Yeah.

Brennan Pursell: 9:03

Yeah. So we got some problems there. And so I think everybody should be doing some form of code. Everybody who wants to do anything with knowledge work. This doesn't pertain to roofers. This doesn't pertain to plumbers. We need them. They're not going away. Sal Khan, love what he does, but his predictions that soon 90 percent of us will be doing creative work and machines will be doing everything else? It's dude, what planet are you on? Okay, I'm from the Bay Area, so I know what planet he's

Don Finley: 9:31

Oh, okay. Yeah. No, I've done a

Brennan Pursell: 9:33

Where are you?

Don Finley: 9:33

Area. I'm in Philly. Yeah. So Eastern Pennsylvania as well, but I, by coastal, I've done a lot of work in the Bay Area as well.

Brennan Pursell: 9:42

all my families out there, I'm the freak who left.

Don Finley: 9:45

love it. I grew up in Ohio. yeah.

Brennan Pursell: 9:47

were you doing in the nineties? You were getting a PhD at Harvard. You could have been part of the revolution. and I'm like, yeah,

Don Finley: 9:53

Yeah, but why? I what age has definitely provided me is that reflective moment of saying, you know what? I could chase everything that ever existed. I could go to the highest mountains and at the same time, there's not happiness there.

Brennan Pursell: 10:07

Again, you have to do what's right for you at the time. And who cares? Once it happens, and there's no point in, crying over spilled milk. But anyway, so back to education, that's the big problem. and institutions aren't adjusted. Your question was, how are the young people dealing with this? And I think too many aren't aware. The other big thing is that they are all being used by AI. They need to learn how to use it. It is shocking how many just are willing, just, shall we say content creators, data creators that train up these new things, getting completely addicted to social media or the gaming or fantasy sports or pornography or whatever it is. and they're just, they're subjecting themselves to it. And they don't see that, these algorithms, these processes are going to make more and more decisions about their lives and they need to protect, they need to. Get ready for this world that's already taking shape.

Don Finley: 11:01

Do you think that the side of them as consumers of the algorithms are the same challenge that we face with corporations and employment as well, Like it's basically looking to maximize your attention which maximizes their revenue and therefore you're effectively the product. But we haven't taught people how to interact in that world because I think we're still figuring that out ourselves around like social media has only been around what 15 years now. And we're now starting to see the challenges that come about from, lack of attention, the downfall of being able to like make decisions for yourself, the chasing of dopamine.

Brennan Pursell: 11:37

So yeah, that's the big risk. And I think one of the biggest questions in education is is this going to change education? And nobody knows. The biggest risk is that dependence on these machines that can answer all your questions for you with an increasing level of, Accuracy. I just spent an hour yesterday with a mathematician, a physicist, and an organic chemist, and we were trying, huh?

Don Finley: 12:06

This is a good joke.

Brennan Pursell: 12:07

We were, if only, we were trying to mess up. We were trying to make GPT 01 mess up with its problem solving capabilities. Couldn't do it. he threw a Taylor series at it based on this one integer that wouldn't work. And, the thing not only said that can't work, here's what you should do to make it work. Change this and do that. And they're like, oh my God. And then at the end of a biochem, of a organic chemistry problem, it said, so here's what's important. And here's some other things you should consider. and then the sources went in were actually accurate. They weren't made up. Yeah, it was, it's really something else. And I'm going to, I need to get the accountants in with me because our accountants are sitting back and saying, it'll never figure out journaling.

Don Finley: 12:52

Oh, that's so easy. Yeah.

Brennan Pursell: 12:55

maybe journaling when you have the CEO and the CFO breathing down your neck saying that you're going to gap or, gap or just principles, you'll put this in the footnotes and you make this look over that way. I think we should make it more machine like, but maybe the reality of the business isn't. that's where mechanics interact or collides with culture

Don Finley: 13:15

Well, and I think you're hitting on an important note as far as what is the underlying intent of this journal entry? And there is A bit not, it's not even creative, but it's a bit of understanding the flow and the information that is not immediately accessible by that line item entry that gets incorporated into the footnotes that gets slid in. And I know when we were working on. I don't do this anymore. Not because it's wrong, but because I don't have to deal in that situation of working with CapEx versus OpEx. And so how do you actually want to categorize a transaction of whether it is OpEx or CapEx, and you can change that just based on the story that you have for that interaction. And I think those moments are rather human in relation of how we build and tell stories together. That's where the AI isn't exactly going, but fields of mathematics, science, like very hard sciences, there are definitive answers that you can get to,

Brennan Pursell: 14:13

Yes.

Don Finley: 14:14

and that is the. Amazing beauty of what happens and where I think humans can play a continued role versus where humans can like delegate to. And so we saw this happen, with the calculator as well.

Brennan Pursell: 14:28

Oh, yes.

Don Finley: 14:29

And I grew up in a time where I was like, no, put your calculator away. You've got to learn how to do these things. And then you get to the point of no, I don't have to know how, I know how to do it and I can delegate it to the machine. But at the same time, it still saves me time. Yet today, we're now dealing with a technology that has intelligence. And that's the first time that we've really seen this, like a shovel that can choose where it wants to shovel.

Brennan Pursell: 14:55

Let's dig into that. Do you really think these things are, they have intelligence?

Don Finley: 15:00

That

Brennan Pursell: 15:00

Or maybe we don't want to go there. Let's take

Don Finley: 15:02

no, we totally, totally can. I will dive as

Brennan Pursell: 15:04

calculator showed up, there's like journalists, it's there's old, like yellow newspaper pictures of math teachers protesting, saying that this will make idiots out of everybody. These things are a disaster. We're not going to change any curriculum. And guess what? It's everywhere. It's absolutely everywhere. It is. But it calculates. And everything, these, Metas, Movie AI Gen, which is jaw dropping that they're going to roll out, it's still just running the numbers. That's what it does. But it's us. It's we who decide whether the results are creative or not. We're the judges.

Don Finley: 15:39

But there's also something else that's happening. With movie generation and video generation, we're seeing that these models are actually doing real time physics generation as well. they have some bit of realistic nature

Brennan Pursell: 15:54

It can seem that way. remember when Sora was running its little ship in the coffee cup and people were saying it has a worldview. Yeah. Until the wave like went to the wrong place. So it gives these. These fleeting images of a worldview. I'm sorry. I'm just more of the camp, but I'm more of the camp. It's just a goddamn machine and boy, can it fool us, but it doesn't know what it's doing.

Don Finley: 16:16

and, but the question is, when, what would it have to do in order for us to definitively know that it's doing it? Because in all honesty, you're literally just a bunch of bits on a screen to me right now. And I am the same to you, right? there is, we know that we're talking to human

Brennan Pursell: 16:34

no, no way. No way. I know you're not an algorithm. I know. And you said you're in Eastern Philly and maybe you're lying to me, but I don't care. no. And I hope that drink tastes good.

Don Finley: 16:45

is

Brennan Pursell: 16:45

the algorithms aren't that good. Notebook LM, though, that Google rolled out, where you just throw in scholarly articles and boom, it makes like a little radio show for you. I think that's fantastic. And that is where it's heading. And, there was that guy, was he in Singapore? Or was he in Hong Kong? And he got deep faked. he had a video called Deepfake and the crooks persuaded him to wire 25 million. This is the world

Don Finley: 17:10

for people who aren't familiar with that, basically a hacker figured out the persona, the images of the executive team, the CFO, and also I think a VP of finance as well. They got on a Zoom together and deep faked him enough that he transferred the 25 million from an account into the hacker's name.

Brennan Pursell: 17:34

and this is where it's heading. And then pretty soon it's going to be holographic images. but, yeah, no, Don, you're more than pixels. Yeah,

Don Finley: 17:44

This is the appreciation that we gotta, pick up. And at the same time, what is that moment? That switches from it actually having intelligence to mimicking or from mimicking to having intelligence

Brennan Pursell: 17:57

that's the whole AGI thing. And I'm not even, I'm not even going there yet.

Don Finley: 18:01

because the, so another experience that I had, this is back in like 2015, right? So this is, neural networks are finally having their renaissance. And I took my text messages that I was ha that I had with a girlfriend of mine at the time. And I trained an NN, recurrent neural

Brennan Pursell: 18:17

Okay.

Don Finley: 18:19

text messages, and then my res or my messages to her, and then it was supposed to predict

Brennan Pursell: 18:25

Did you automate your girlfriend,

Don Finley: 18:27

I I did, and this is the funniest part about

Brennan Pursell: 18:29

Oh God.

Don Finley: 18:30

is I was playing around to see how it would go, and I trained it on a MacBook Air, so we're not even talking about a lot of power to it. Trained it over the course of a day, it the first thing that it had learned is, Basically where to put the spaces. It was just a bunch of garbage. And then you saw it put spaces in between words and then you saw words starting to form. Then you saw sentences and you saw verb placement and like it started to get it. And so I asked it a couple of questions. I was like, Oh, this is garbage. And then it has that one hit where it actually responds to In a way that you're like, that's her, that's the essence of her. And I go, we are so easily fooled into personifying something and giving it those anamorphic qualities when it just displays the glimmer of it.

Brennan Pursell: 19:17

Yes. that's what's

Don Finley: 19:18

that's, that's where we're at today is we're seeing these like glimmers of it, but it does feel like it's a lot closer.

Brennan Pursell: 19:25

Oh yeah. there's no question that it's constantly improving at a dizzying pace and we don't know where it's going to go. The tech bro, the billionaire tech bros are just raking it in on the promise of AGI and stuff like that. But yeah, that, that's what we're looking at. It's nuts. And people need to discern for themselves. And I think there's another insight about it that the fact that, all right, so you trained your RNN on just those texts that you had. How many? Probably a few hundred,

Don Finley: 19:57

a few thousand,

Brennan Pursell: 19:58

a few thousand.

Don Finley: 19:59

few thousand

Brennan Pursell: 19:59

But not in the millions.

Don Finley: 20:01

we're not talking millions. We're not talking like a really set

Brennan Pursell: 20:03

you train these LLMs on 10 to the 14 tokens, it's the internet. and then a lot of the things that come out, it's you're right. I suppose none of us really are all that original. And there's that old line that's been around for a long time. We're all born originals and we all die carbon copies. the carbon copy is now dead. So I suppose we all die just predictable outputs. How exceptional are we? And there's 8 billion of us on the planet, and where is this heading? I don't know. But boy, yeah, it's really, it is certainly simulating tremendous knowledge and intelligence. Sorry?

Don Finley: 20:34

go into that idea that you're talking about here as far as that we're all born original and we all die carbon copies.

Brennan Pursell: 20:41

Oh, it's just an old line.

Don Finley: 20:42

But no, there is some validity to it, right? Because we basically go through an education system that, formalizes us. We go through childhood and we are social creatures that kind of build us to, gather. And one of the early childhood fears, what's that?

Brennan Pursell: 20:57

There's physical evidence. Your genome is your genome, it's nobody else's. And it's then, it's just experiential. Your story is your story. We're all living between here. We're all stuck in ourselves. We can't get out of ourselves. Okay. My daughter might be obsessed with images of herself. A zillion pictures aren't enough, but she's still stuck inside of herself. whoever is obsessed with their own image, they can really go down that path deep. But, also when we go through that door of death, you go alone. There's plenty of people that have tried to make it a communal exercise. It doesn't work.

Don Finley: 21:33

Oh.

Brennan Pursell: 21:34

So it's your life. It's your story and nobody else's, and we have to deal with that.

Don Finley: 21:41

wrapping this into the education side, do you think that there's an opportunity to change education so that it is helping people to understand that it is their own world that they're living in, their own experience, and to take some responsibility instead of delegating that responsibility to another entity or prematurely delegating it to that space? is there some responsibility that we have to educate The youth in that factor as well.

Brennan Pursell: 22:08

Given the current standards for student learning outcomes and curriculum subjects, there is no room for that whatsoever. Now for, I'm just thinking of the big systems that

Don Finley: 22:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Brennan Pursell: 22:21

Private institutions can be more nimble. Of course, there's, it's part of ethics, doing the right thing by yourself and by others. There's a lot we can do with that, but then there's also cultural upbringing. The aspect of being human, it's, I don't know about you, I haven't figured out anything. Have you figured things out, Don? Don, I used to be so much smarter, I got, I had everything figured out in my 20s. I was so good to go. Anyway,

Don Finley: 22:48

was really, you and I are the same. Absolutely brilliant in my twenties and now in my forties. I'm I have way more questions.

Brennan Pursell: 22:58

And I'm more and more impressed by contingency of things and the fragility. one thing we are absolutely seeing among 18 to 22 year olds is soaring incidents of anxiety, depression, self hatred, listlessness, directionlessness, hopelessness. Some people are talking about a meta crisis. And, having. Kids of my own that are moving into that age and just working with them all the time. We're seeing more and more. This is also the generation that spent that part of a year locked up at home. then they're, to a certain extent, they're raised by social media algorithm and media feeds that, as you mentioned before, are solely there to enhance engagement. Regardless of what the content is. And I think that's an appalling situation, and I wish authorities would do something about it, but I'm sorry, in this system of ours, there's too much money in it, and no one wants to end that party. So I think we're stuck with it. So definitely, we're the land of individualism, so it behooves the individual and the family to raise the kid, to have the self respect. to, no one to call it quits. But it's really hard to do that with a 12 and a 13 year old. Who has no sense of control.

Don Finley: 24:20

Oh, I totally understand. And I'm glad that I didn't grow up in that environment because I would not have had the self control and it is literally right there. but there was also that curiosity, like actually 12 years old, I think we got our first computer. So That was definitely an endless source of fascination for me, but

Brennan Pursell: 24:37

So yeah, at DeSales, what are we're getting them from all sides. They come from, I'm at DeSales University up in Allentown, just south of Allentown. We're in Center Valley. We're getting them. Some are homeschooled, some are from big urban areas. public school districts. Others have been, have gone through private Catholic education the whole way. It's everything you can imagine. We're getting more diverse all the time. I love it. There's people, there's recent immigrants from the Caribbean and North Africa and Asia and other things. the place is changing all the time. There's constant change, but these kids need to know what they're heading into. And local institutions have got to Adjust to the new productive tools. The way we work is changing. Everyone's reeling. This last year, we did a series of, our forum for ethics in the workplace and the three breakfasts of the year were all about different AI tools and they gave little keynotes about here's what's happening here and here's what's happening here. So for you businesses, you have to decide what your rules for data management are. This is all about data. It's still gigo, garbage in, garbage out. What the smaller entities work with, smaller entities do not scrape the internet and then just, and, get the probabilities to work in their favor. think everyone is really just, what do we do? there's some of our graduates from sales are at PricewaterhouseCoopers and other larger institutions. And they're saying, yeah, we have to invest in this. We we're not quite sure what we're investing in, but we know things are changing. We know There's a competitive edge to be won. There's productivity gains to be won, but there are also costs and there, there are risks. And so I'm, I'm dealing with daily imposter syndrome and I'm handed questions about where this is headed and I don't know.

Don Finley: 26:22

What do you ground yourself in? because I find myself to be in a place of lack of clarity My go to is basically meditating sitting and just quieting everything to see what comes through like where do you find your clarity?

Brennan Pursell: 26:37

Also in quiet, I get my peace back. I can quiet my mind being in nature, but that is also no longer so stable. Which gets us back to the meta crisis, it's just the world we're living in. But yeah, there's that. And then there's sense of purpose. And I'm a family man. I have my mission. My mission is my marriage and my family and my kids. and then by extension, my students at sales. I care. I know I think about them a lot more than they think about me. They're not interested in people like me. They're just not, they're tuned into each other. I get it. But, They need some help, and we're trying to do our best by them. We really are. But it's not easy.

Don Finley: 27:22

I can completely understand. So what could we be doing for our students? And how can they take an action as well, stepping into this new age?

Brennan Pursell: 27:32

that's the million dollar question. And there's a lot we can do, come up with new ways. We've got to make higher ed less expensive for crying out loud. It's so expensive, just nuts. but how do you do this? How do you use the free learning tools that are just there for free? What blows me away most about the deep learning community that's made all this possible is the generosity. The way people just develop JSON and put it out there. They just develop pandas and put it up there. and just what Andrew Ang does. God, I love that guy. he's amazing. to have, to shape curriculum, but again, it gets back to my earlier point, the inertia of institutions. If we really change things the way we want to, in some cases where I'd like to see it to sales, our accreditors would breathe fire down our backs and say, you've got to be kidding. This isn't the way things work. And here we are in an election year, and I'm not going to go there, but yeah, there's another example of practices and institutions that are absolutely stuck on certain ways that we know rationally it could be done better, more efficiently, more securely by looking at examples around the world.

Don Finley: 28:42

there's a lot to be learned from this entire experience. Brennan, I gotta say, thank you so much for being on with us today. Like, really. Yeah, and I love the bit of wisdom as far as taking our own responsibility and

Brennan Pursell: 28:55

Wisdom. That came from you taking responsibility.

Don Finley: 28:57

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