The Human Code
The Human Code" podcast unravels the intricate blend of technology, leadership, and personal growth, featuring insights from visionary leaders and innovators shaping the future. Host Don Finley dives deep into the human stories behind technological advancements, inspiring listeners at the crossroads of humanity and tech.
The Human Code
From Tech Giant to Whistleblower: William “Bill” Sullivan’s Career Reflections
Integrity in Tech Leadership: William “Bill” Sullivan's Journey
In this episode of The Human Code, host Don Finley dives into a conversation with William “Bill” Sullivan, a seasoned tech leader known for his focus on integrity, ethics, and the intersection of humanity and technology. Bill's career spans pivotal roles at Oracle, IBM, AWS, and PeopleSoft, where he led major transformations and fostered innovation. The discussion touches upon his leadership philosophies, experiences navigating complex business environments, and the personal challenges he faced, including a high-stakes legal battle as a whistleblower. Bill shares valuable insights on leadership, the enduring significance of people in technology, and standing firm on one's principles even in adverse situations.
Bill's book “It Used To Be Fun: A Federal Whistleblower’s Trip Through The Software Industry” will be published soon.
00:00 Introduction to The Human Code Podcast
00:49 Meet William “Bill” Sullivan: A Leader in Tech
02:15 Bill's Early Career and Lessons Learned
05:33 Navigating Business Transformations
09:02 Leadership Philosophies and Team Dynamics
13:23 Challenges and Successes at PeopleSoft
19:04 Informatica: Ethical Dilemmas and Leadership
25:24 Legal Advice and Initial Steps 26:38 Justice Department Takes the Case
27:39 Facing the Consequences
28:23 Guiding Principles and Integrity
32:16 Impact on Career and Personal Life
38:19 Whistleblower Challenges and Legal Battles
43:15 Future Aspirations and Final Thoughts
Sponsored by FINdustries
Hosted by Don Finley
Welcome to The Human Code, the podcast where technology meets humanity, and the future is shaped by the leaders and innovators of today. I'm your host, Don Finley, inviting you on a journey through the fascinating world of tech, leadership, and personal growth. Here, we delve into the stories of visionary minds, Who are not only driving technological advancement, but also embodying the personal journeys and insights that inspire us all. Each episode, we explore the intersections where human ingenuity meets the cutting edge of technology, unpacking the experiences, challenges, and triumphs that define our era. whether you are a tech enthusiast, an inspiring entrepreneur, or simply curious about the human narratives behind the digital revolution, you're in the right place. Welcome to The Human Code. Our guest today is bill Sullivan. A leader whose career exemplifies the intersection of humanity and technology. with decades of experience steering transformative change, in some of the most admired technology companies. Bill has a unique perspective on driving growth, fostering innovation and building teams with integrity. From pivotal roles at Oracle IBM and AWS. To being at the helm of a remarkable turnarounds and strategic initiatives. Bill's story is one of resilience, vision and steadfast commitment to ethics. In this episode, we explore Bill's experience navigating complex business transformations, the principles that shaped his leadership philosophy and his thoughts on the evolving relationship between people and technology. Join us as we uncover the lessons learned from a career built on trust, truth, and impact. I'm here with my friend Bill Sullivan, and I gotta say Bill, thank you so much for being on the show today. It's absolutely an honor to have you on. you have such an interesting story to tell, and it is really in line with how our humanity intersects with technology throughout the entire thing. but I really just want to start this off with what got you interested in the intersection of humanity and technology?
Bill Sullivan:Don, first, thanks so much for having me on You and I have spoken one time before and I really enjoyed your approach. What really got me interested in peering and talking about my experience is precisely that point. I've been around working in technology since the mainframe era and I Can tell you that the best technology does not always win. The best execution wins. And for good execution, you need two things, good leadership and good people. And throughout my career, I've been fortunate to lead some great teams. And as a result, I've got some unique introspections on that. others in that, lawyers don't take the body of Bankruptcy law and throw it out the window every 12 to 15 years, in the time that I've been here We've seen us go from mainframe to client server, to the internet, to the cloud. and in each iteration of release, it quickly throws out all that came before. But the only thing that remains constant throughout is the people. And you need the people to build it. You need the people to market sell it. You need the people to believe that by using the technology, it'll benefit their business or their government.
Don Finley:That is some great insights and you're absolutely correct. we tend to throw everything out every 10 to 15 years in an entire cycle. I was working with, one of the first engineers of Skype and he was in his early fifties at the time and we were doing another startup and he goes, I'm retiring after this cause just that constant cycle. of learning and innovation was there, but tell us about some of the, your early career and additionally, like the experiences that made you into the leader that you are today. Like, where do you find inspiration in that, avenue?
Bill Sullivan:my first experience with technology, I went through a EDS had a sales development program, and I like to joke that it was a Jesuit education and how to run a business. It was an outstanding experience. But my first experience with software actually came when I was at Sybase. I was working for a gentleman by the name of Patrick Arnone. Now, Patrick had been a long term Oracle executive and came over to run public sector. And that transitioned from a very buttoned down white shirt or blue shirt, blue suit environment established by Ross Perot to the, What was then viewed as the Wild West of software, was a big transition, but I found that I liked it. I found that, there's a lot of opportunity there. Patrick taught me basically how to run a software business. he, the imports and field operations of marketing, channel sales, consulting, and making sure they all worked together. And that's the critical thing is so oftentimes companies, They'll be strong in one area or the other, or the leader in a particular company is strong in one area or the other. But I have found that, making sure that each cylinder of that four cylinder engine is firing correctly is the most important aspect to being successful. And then the leader is charged with. Making them operate in conjunction with each other correctly, given the life, where the business is, how mature the business is. the early business, you want your marketing team really strong, building and generating leads. The mid tier business, you've got to be strong across all of them. and then the business at scale, you need a really strong sales organization, a la Oracle or once upon a time IBM. so that's, I learned that and Patrick really took good care of his people. And that's the second thing that really, I learned there. From there, I went to IBM, Tivoli IBM, and that was an interesting experience because I joined Tivoli about six weeks after IBM had acquired them. And Tivoli at the time was about as wild a software organization as you could hope to find, Managers were charged with buying drinks for their employees on a Friday afternoon at corporate headquarters in Austin, Texas. They'd roll up. Beer truck in there and everybody would have happy hour together on a Friday afternoon, bringing that into. the IBM corporate environment was a little like bringing the Visigoths into Rome. And yet to their credit, IBM realized that they needed that the people, they needed the killer attitude that would go after this new client server world. So I was charged with setting up a North American state and local sales organization, and I had encountered a couple of challenges because the commercial team had gone through the IBM. North American team for state and local, like Sherman on the way to the sea. they just, they were very transactional and IBM had these 30 year relationships with state government. So I hired a team. I worked within both cultures. Ultimately, we were very successful. The team, my second year there was named, The number one team in North America for Tivoli. As a result of that, the company came to me and said, the commercial region, Southeast commercial region has not yet made their number in the last year. would you be willing to take it over? And I agreed. It was about twice the size of the one I was running. And so they said, okay, you're also going to have to do a 10 percent cut back and restructure all the salespeople from geographic coverage to, product line coverage. so I figured that was going to be. in addition to challenges of working with IBM and Tivoli, it was a fascinating challenge, but, I went into it thinking, okay, this would be a
Don Finley:when you're handed the challenge of basically, going into a new organization and then have the dictate that you're basically going to change from geography to product line sales, structure your first 30, 60, 90 days?
Bill Sullivan:that was a direct answer. I have a. Strategy that I use anytime I go into any company and it's built again on the four disciplines I very quickly analyze an organization based upon how is each one of those entities doing and You know that way So oftentimes I get brought in and turnaround situation. They say well sales is underperforming Is sales getting any lead from marketing? Do we have any channel relationships at all? Are they generating any opportunities for us? only then can you determine whether or not sales is effective. And that particular thing at, situation at Tivoli Southeast Commercial, I worked closely with the four managers I inherited. Each was outstanding and, each agreed which segment of the business they were going to take. We stacked rank the salespeople. We made sure that everybody had sufficient opportunity in their patch. And, after coming through a tough 10 percent cutback, ultimately the organization, the end of that year, it was funny. We started the fourth quarter at the bottom of the stack, for North America. We did about 114 percent of the annual number in the fourth quarter, and we finished at about 174 percent of the, total annual number, for the year, at the end of the year, and Southeast was then named the number one. region in, IBM software group. that's getting through it as a team with the managers was, a critical exercise, causing the sales people to see a plan that they could believe in and that they could be successful with. building credibility with the company that, yeah, this is all going to come together in the fourth quarter. it was, a multi phased, strategy, but it's one that to a greater or lesser degree, I've run a couple of times.
Don Finley:And I know we're talking about technology, but a lot of the challenges that you've brought up or a lot of the accomplishments are done through the people that you led. what would you say are your top philosophies on like how you lead organizations in that capacity?
Bill Sullivan:Um, I wrote Bill's Rules. And, there are about 20 rules that I didn't author all of them. If I borrowed them from somebody, I cite that individual, but there are a couple that stand out that people come back to me years later and say, Bill, that's so true. one of them is work with people, and trust, go hire them. and it seems So simple and yet people, until you say it, you put it in writing, they don't think it through. And again, that's one that I always have people come back and say, Bill, man, that is so true because 80 or 90 percent of early stage software companies fail, it's usually not because the technology didn't work. It's because they couldn't get the business model down. They couldn't get the people committed and executing. Another one that I use, the number one rule is tell the truth. Tell me the truth. And I say, it's not, tell you the truth is something your mom should tell you when you're a kid, sales under the, there's a first component of that is sales understands the problems. I can't help you if I don't understand the problems. And this is important because we pay salespeople not to generate revenue. We pay salespeople to go into a government agency or into a company and look at the strategy, the structure, the execution of that entity and figure out how do we put our technology into that environment such that it will generate revenue. value to that end customer. Okay. So great salespeople can do that in about four to six weeks in a complex environment, they can do that in about 20 minutes with their own company. And part of the reason most companies don't get much better than 60 percent effort or participation or alignment with their people, particularly salespeople, is because they ignore everything that the salespeople have to say. And so I, I. I flipped that on its head and I say, let's fix our own company first. And when you come into these situations where you turn around, the good salespeople will do a couple of things. if they trust you and they like you, they'll tell you what are the problems and. If they're heard, they won't leave simply because there's a new boss. Your best salespeople always have a better option. Your best coders always have a better option. As Bill McDermott said at SAP, people don't leave the company. They leave their boss. And that's one of Bill's rules. and how you engage with people in that technology environment, oftentimes high stress. Oftentimes lots of pressure, but if you seek to pull the best out of them based upon their job and their experience, they'll be very loyal and they will overachieve the sum of their parts. And that's. Again, part of my magic, my secret for being successful is causing folks across an organization to perform in excess of the sum of their parts.
Don Finley:That's beautiful. And I think it's, These rules apply no matter how many times we throw technology out, there are core tenants of human relationships and like how we actually operate that continue to play through every iteration of a digital transformation that we go through.
Bill Sullivan:and mind you, they actually, I use them, they're not directive. I, the introduction just says, this is, these are designed to build an environment in which we all want to work together. Work with new people and trust, tell the truth. there's another one I particularly enjoy. it's relevant to, software. there's a professor at Stanford university that wrote first an article and later a book that said the no asshole. and basically. That's one of my rules. the no asshole rule is always in effect. In other words, too many people lead with their ego. Maybe they've made money. Maybe they think they're the greatest inventor since Tesla. But you wonder why companies fail. It's because they don't follow that rule from the professor at Stanford University.
Don Finley:That is a fantastic role and I'm pretty sure that there's a variation of that in our manifesto as well. But on your know, and trust, the way that we've implemented that is that we work with friends. And so if I can only, if I can offer friendship to you, whether we've met once, we've met a hundred times, I want to show up in a capacity of you are a person that I love and care about.
Bill Sullivan:and that helps too when you, when, Everybody has their tribe that they worked with early in their technology career. Maybe it was Cisco, maybe it was IBM, maybe it was EDS, maybe it was, in my case, PeopleSoft, IBM, Tivoli. and you build a reputation early on about who you are as a result. And you also, oscillate at the same frequency with certain people. And those are the people that either you work for, or they come work for you or work with you. they'll, you'll reference them to bring them into your company, just cause the company's going to be better with them there. and that's just so important.
Don Finley:I love it. So I know that we're on your career journey. but I want to give you some space to, still express what created the leader that you are today.
Bill Sullivan:those were the formative years, the Tivoli IBM.
Don Finley:Yeah.
Bill Sullivan:FIndustries. leader. he was named CEO of the year by business press back in 2000, 2001 or so. and, It was a bit of a turnaround situation, but I did that for about a year and a quarter, and then they promoted me to be vice president of North American State and Local. And that was at the time, the largest, application sales organization in the public sector for State and Local. it was a great role. We had just acquired J. D. Edwards. I inherited a group of folks from the JD Edwards organization. And one week later, Larry Ellison announced that he was going to buy PeopleSoft, shut it down, fire all the employees and, cancel the code line. it was an interesting time. and that's probably a book unto itself. it was one of the most. antagonistic, hostile takeover offers, battles that we've seen in industry. I think it went on for about 15 or 18 months. I had a ringside seat on it. We had, seven of my state government customers joined the Department of Justice antitrust suit seeking to bar Oracle from acquiring PeopleSoft. we had another. Customer file on their own state of Connecticut. and through it all, we had great stability. We continued to win deals in large measure, first because of the quality of the product. again, salespeople, field people, marketing. We all forget that before we got there and became good looking geniuses for years before us, there were some very talented technologists that created this magnificent software. So it's important to remember that and have some humility about it. So the reason we were very successful and the reason, Larry wanted to buy the company, was because it was outstanding technology. and secondly, it was a very well run company under Craig. and third, one of the things I really liked about ERP is, is if usual software sales is dating, ERP is marriage. you're in it for the longterm. It is, the implementations would take a year or two years. in a were so loyal to us was the quality of the organization that we had facing them. We had, it wasn't just software people. We had accountants and we had HR professionals and each one had a quota, but it But they approach the job very differently. and it's part of the reason I really so enjoyed my time at PeopleSoft. a quick story that illustrates the point. we had, I think at 1. 14 states on our technology, I And I'd know going into any particular, finals presentation that At least four or five of my states were saying you'd be stupid to buy anything but PeopleSoft. And part of that also was, as Vice President of North America, we were doing payroll for a few hundred thousand people, maybe a million government employees. And invariably, somewhere across the country, the payroll system would kick out a million dollar check to a teacher in Cedar Rapids. Okay? Somebody changed something in a table, and those are the types of things that are like local news, front page. So I'd get the call. I was the one chartered with getting the call and I never rolled over on either, the CIO in the city, county, or state. And I never rolled over on the partner that was probably running that system. We may not have talked to the locality in a year. I just say, this is what we do. We do it for a million folks and it's going to be corrected. I'm glad that the system caught it. and, I never do that. And so in public sector, that's particularly important because I found people will help you out, These are folks that they don't want to be in the newspaper. If you're, you're a senior government person in Tallahassee or Coeur d'Alene or Santa Fe, and you're the person that screwed up the state payroll, man, you're not going to find another job. So having somebody that's not going to throw you under the bus was a particularly valuable component to their positive references moving forward. But I had a magnificent team with me. I have hired many of them in the years since. and when you talk about the intersection of people and technology, ERP is probably one of the best studies.
Don Finley:It's funny that you say that I spent a good part of my time building ERP type solutions. And that was absolutely the case because we were, building from the ground and then deploying and there's nothing about software that you get right a hundred percent on the first time. And so having the relationships in order to. rectify that to, to create collaborative environments, to ensure that people are getting their needs met during that process of figuring it all out is incredibly important. And to showcase how well we did that, 15 years ago was when I had one client and now I sit on the board of his company.
Bill Sullivan:Wow.
Don Finley:so yeah, it's a, a really strong relationship that we developed over time. And he's even trying to get me to go down to Argentina with him next year to do carnival. But
Bill Sullivan:You should definitely go.
Don Finley:thank you. Thank
Bill Sullivan:email back. Thanks. Dancing the tango. Let me know when you're going.
Don Finley:Okay. I definitely will. Bill, I think what an amazing career that you've had up to this point, and you really showcased how, you're leading with integrity around, the people that you work with, the telling the truth being one of your rules, and additionally working with people that you know, and trust. where's the next part of the story going?
Bill Sullivan:when years went by. I, ironically, I was just wrapping up a position. I was at Savvy Technology, division of Lockheed Martin and again, Craig Conway from, PeopleSoft, part of my tribe, called and said, Informatica is looking for somebody to run public sector. Would you be interested in doing it? And of course, when Craig calls, you take that call. And I interviewed with Paul Hoffman, then the president of the company, and I was brought on board. Informatica, first of all, first and foremost, a fabulous technology. I used to say, you never have to take a shower at the end of the day, having worked for Informatica. They have tremendous technology and particularly back then. secondly, under Paul Hoffman, they had great culture. I had not seen organizations with salespeople that had been there 12, 14 years. he, it was just a, there was trust there. if you had a big deal, they'd quota you accordingly in the beginning of the year, but if they felt that you had done everything right, eh, maybe they'd trim the quote at the end of the year and, and maybe you like make a little money and you didn't have to worry about whether they were going to fire you, even if you had been a great rep the year before. So as a result, they were actually able to build an organization that contained a lot of collective knowledge on both the technology, as well as the market and their customer set. And again, way you build your brand and business to business marketing is through the sum total of your contacts between your sales force and your prospects and customers. Again, it's the people. It's not have a Coke and a smile. It's not, we try harder. It's, how do you do? I'm from Informatica or IBM and I'm here to help you with your problem. And that's how you build your brand. Within the first eight months, I was designated a top 1 percent critical employee. after about a year and a half, I became aware that the company had been, submitting false reps and certs, to the U S federal government. So basically when you sell to government, you represent under oath to the government that. The prices you're giving them for same or similar transactions are, as good or better than what you're offering other customers in the commercial market. So that's called most favored nation pricing. because you're dealing with taxpayer money, companies have to make an attestation under oath saying we're not going to sell for anybody else at a greater discount than what we are selling to the U. S. federal government. And I became aware that the company was in fact violating that provision. I had at that point, the public sector organization was growing at about 38 percent CAGR, combined average annual growth rate. we had grown the organization about three or four X in terms of the number of people as well as the revenues. and so I, took the issue to our corporate attorney, Paul Levy, who had been with me at PeopleSoft. and they wanted a good lawyer. I said, go hire Paul Levy. He's about the best software transaction attorney out there. Paul looked at the situation and said, you're right, Bill. Bill's right. He sent a note to the vice president of North America. Um, Bill's right. This is illegal. Stop doing it.
Don Finley:So this is nine months in, like around that time
Bill Sullivan:would have been about a year and a
Don Finley:about a year and a half
Bill Sullivan:about a year and a half in. Yeah, I had already been designated a top 1 percent critical employee. I would be designated again the second year a top 1 percent critical employee, but it kicked off a situation where it was like a John Grisham novel. I knew. Based on being in the market for 25 years, that what they were doing was illegal. It wasn't a gray zone. it was the senior government officer of the company. I had the company's attorney say, he's right. This is illegal. Six months later, he reviewed it again. He said, are you still doing this? Let me tell you all of the bad things that can happen. Oracle just paid 180 million fine. CA just paid it, 50 or 60 million fine. Don't do this anymore. And they continue to do it. a couple of things happened in, over the time there at Informatica, first Paul Hoffman left. again, Paul was a fabulous leader. He had the trust of people in the company. the CEO Sohey brought in a new leadership team. and again, John McGee was brought in as the executive vice president. John's a superb leader, good man. but he was told to do the wrong things, basically burn down all the field organization. So that's why the company started to struggle to make money, to hit the number. And I kept trying to say, guys, don't do this. And after a long period, I just went to the CEO, Sohaib, and I simply said, Sohaib, you can run the company any way you want. I quit. And he asked me to fly out and talk to him. And so we did. And he asked me, he said, look, I need your help, Bill. I need you to need your help to fix the company. Would you give a presentation to the executive staff on what you feel is wrong with the company? Because I agree with you. And I said, okay. I said, if I do that, however, Hey, I'm going to be the most unpopular person in the company and probably in the software industry, but he said, no, Bill, I will protect you. about six weeks later, I went out, I brought one of my managers, Jim Pruden, superb individual. And I think Kimberly Williams was with me and I gave this presentation and in the wake of that presentation, he moved John McGee out of the company, moved my boss down a level, brought in a guy from Europe, Charles Race, to serve as executive vice president of the company. And I just went back to work. About six months went by, we closed the third quarter, had a great third quarter. flew up to New York and, Frank said to me, Bill, I think we're going to fire you. And I said, really, Frank, why is that? He said, we don't think you're on the team. And, so Charles race is going to fly in from London and he's probably going to fire you this afternoon. I said, okay, let's see what Charles says. So Charles comes in and starts down the road of, I'm hearing that you're not really committed to the company. And I said, Charles, let me tell you a story. I actually went to Sohey. Back in March and quit. The reason you have your job is because I gave the presentation. So they've asked me to give, and he moved John out and he put you in the job. first to do that. And now you're telling me you want to fire me and you're telling me I'm not committed to the business. They said, you don't have somebody that's more committed to this company than myself. was immediately apologetic. Neither he nor Frank had known that I had quit with Sohaib. They had no idea how that meeting to the executive staff came about that I had been asked to do it. So I figured, okay, I'll go back and I'll go back to work. So three months goes by and Frank comes into Washington at the beginning of the next year and says, we're going to let you go. And I said, wow, we're going to do this again, huh, Frank? And I didn't even bother to call Sohaib the last time. So I called him. I said, Sohaib, what happened to, I will protect you. And He said, Bill, I've been hearing things. And I said, so have you been hearing things from people that got demoted as a result of the presentation you asked me to give? So the numbers don't justify it. I'm still the fastest growing division in the company. And he said, if you go quietly, we'll be generous. Okay. yeah. So that's where this started to turn into a Grisham novel. And I floated a severance plan of, one year base salary, and Pay my health care until I'm done. And now that was too expensive. And that's when I said, okay, there's something up here. and so I, I took the situation to a friend of mine, who's a former U. S. attorney. And he in turn referred it to lawyers at London and Meade who handle these types of things. And they came back in 24 hours that, we've got all the emails saying this is illegal. we'll take the case. Not only that, we know the justice department attorney that handles these matter, we'll float it to them and see what they want it. And typically justice looks at something for four to six months before they accept it. I think they came back in two weeks and said, we want this case. So a couple of things happened. by that point I had started at another company. but my concern and the reason I felt I had to do this was, the nature of a conspiracy. If, something is wrong and you don't call it, you're every bit as guilty as the people that actually do it. so I knew all along that if this were to be revealed. As head of public sector, the government, justice department attorneys or GSA would come look at me, put my hand on a Bible and say, Mr. Sullivan, what did you know? when did you know it? And what did you do about it? And, these were not stupid people. The fact that they were, going to try to, they did fire me. In the wake of, letting them know manifestly what their own attorney told them was illegal. I knew that this was an issue. So justice department picked up the case. they put it under seal. I became aware that the company. was going to be taken private. again, the wheels were coming off. one. the attorneys and I said, look, they're going to go private. So they, three, two things happened in quick succession. the company issued a press release saying, celebrating the fact they're going to get taken by Primerica and some other companies, Salesforce Ventures. three days later, they said, we've been notified that we will be, the subject of a justice department investigation, but we don't believe that it has any merits. Well, four years went by, it turns out it had merits. Most of the complaint that was filed, reads exactly like the, press release the Justice Department issued four years later. And the Justice, DOJ also cited the case as one of their top wins for 2019. it's not something, certainly not something I wanted to do, but again, if you're in that conspiracy.
Don Finley:yeah, and I was just gonna ask, because, you kinda come to this decision, and we just brushed over the idea that like, there's a lot that goes into that. You're now going from being in Informatica in that internal place of trying to address the problem, cause you want to rectify it, but then as soon as they really turn coded on you, Like your response was to go to the lawyers, but there's a gap in there that has to be rather intense. And it has to like bump against your character and like your understanding of Who you are as a team player in one capacity. And then additionally, your responsibility as like a, to yourself and to your community on the other. and I'm just curious about what that experience was like,
Bill Sullivan:when I was an undergraduate at William Mary, I had a finance professor, I believe his name was O'Connell, who one time told the class, if you are ever an executive and you don't know what to do, always act in the best interests of the shareholder. and, that has guided me through so many weird, there's always challenging situations the further you go up in management. that was one of them. And the other one that, that guided me was it was just so clearly illegal, I did not want to go through life. if I had accepted their offer to quote, go quietly and return for a lot of money, I was a conspirator and I, I just was not the way I want. I didn't want to go through life looking over my shoulder. and so those were the two guiding principles I had when, not only then, but many times through my career. Just there, there are oftentimes that companies will act in a way that is inethitable to the shareholder interest, but as an executive and as a leader, you have to do that first. and actually, first you have to obey the law, honestly, this wasn't a tough call, This wasn't a gray zone. This was just and as a publicly traded. As an executive with publicly traded companies, I've been through, legal training, everything from foreign corrupt practices to antitrust to HR. You name it many times. critical employee of Informatica. I didn't go looking for a lawsuit. I, I risked my entire career trying to help the then CEO fix the company. and that was my reward. when you do that, your hand is forced.
Don Finley:I'm seeing a lot of similarities in other stories that I've read around like people who are faced with adversity. And this is, the John Smith hero's journey, Like you found something, you faced adversity and you had to overcome it, but it almost felt like it was destiny as well. Like you were put into this situation and I'm putting words in your mouth in that regard. this is what fate has brought you to. And it's your choice to stand up in this moment and decide who you are. And you chose to be somebody who has, the integrity to follow through with your word, to support your community, to be there for the shareholders, as well. And I'm using shareholders, not as the typical corporate structure, but basically in your community and the shareholders of the United States, as that goes.
Bill Sullivan:I want to clear, I'm not Joan of Arc,
Don Finley:no,
Bill Sullivan:but, if I had friends that say, Hey, we're going to go rob a bank. Okay. We just want you to drive the car. You don't have to get out of the car. You don't have to pick up a gun. You don't have to grab any money. You just need to drive the car. if they go in, they shoot somebody in the bank. Now I've got a murder one charge. Okay. That's the nature of a conspiracy. That's what they teach in law school. And so you're either all in. You were all out. And I just knew I was all out. I did not want any part of it. again, I had originally gone to So Haven Efforts to quit, and he asked me not to do it, to stay and help him fix the company. But, it is personal integrity, but it also no small degree of fear.'cause I don't wanna live my life saying, yeah, gee, I hope nobody ever finds out what I did or did not do at Informatica. And I, at this don't have to.
Don Finley:conscious is a strong driver. Now, so we talked about the outcome of the lawsuit as well. how do you think this has impacted Informatica and have they, come to be more transparent or at least honoring their favorite nation clauses?
Bill Sullivan:yeah. I have nothing negative to say about the Informatica corporation. at Denota, I've been competing with Informatica for a few years. They have great technology. They have great people. Neil Chakravarthy was the CEO. I can't remember the gentleman that took it now. He was there when I was there. These are good people, These were decisions that were being made by a very small coterie of people that are no longer with the company. So I have no, antipathy towards Informatica Corporation. It's executives are employees today. they got great stuff. but how it has, affected me, I was fired from three of four jobs I had after the lawsuit was filed. And I've had people say, Oh, that kind of happens to whistleblowers. when you go into the case and the justice department tells you, Oh, you can't touch a whistleblower. It's going to be great. And that was a big deal because again, I threw a hand grenade into a 5. 3 billion dollar corporate transaction. And they were very concerned both for my personal safety, as well as, the, integrity of their case. my resume, which people can see online, was actually submitted in a federal court filing under oath. So if it was wrong, anything was wrong, that would have undermined, so not many people can say their resume has survived a federal court, jurisdiction, review. again, it speaks to the integrity piece, but so you come out of it and As I said, I was fired from three of four companies in the five years after I left Informatica. I won't walk through all of them, but, obviously at that point, I realized there, there was something up. I remember at one company, I had a great performance. I've been there 10 months, 300 percent same quarter year over year growth, I had built a sales organization. The president came in on a Thursday afternoon and said, Bill, it's just not working. And I said, Bob, it's never going to get better, but employment will stay, they can fire you for anything you want. I was at Cloudera and, took them successfully through the IPO. three days after the options unlocked, my boss, flew into town and said, we're going to have to let you go. And I don't typically get angry by. Principle, and I wasn't angry with my boss. Ken Schock is still a good friend. he didn't even know why he was firing me, if I'd be honest. Neither do I think to Tom Riley or the gentleman that was running North American sales, who's a great North American sales leader, but the company knew that my mother was in the intensive care unit, she would go on to die about four days later. So they flew into town, fired me and went back up to the hospital and dealt with that. fortunately, my old friend, David Levy called and, asked me to set up division at AWS for him. and that went on to, I built a team of 25, some odd people focused on the top 25 federal systems integrators, that was the fastest growing organization worldwide for AWS. last year I was there, received an award for that. but then, it was interesting. I went to in for, I loved working for David. AWS has its challenges. I had a couple of specific challenges. Charles Phillips, who was the CEO of Infor at the time, who had also been the president of Oracle when I did the integration of PeopleSoft public sector into Oracle, called me and said, Hey, I've got a 300 million business. Hasn't made the number in a year. Can you come? I really need you. And I said, nobody leaves AWS Charles. Thank you. And he said, no, I really need you. And a good friend of mine was retiring from that spot. And it wasn't just the money, but obviously the third effort, they made a great run at me and I went over, and I had. Five of the regional vice presidents working for me had worked for me at PeopleSoft. So again, work with people, and trust. I'd say 50 percent of the organization had been on my team at PeopleSoft. So I'm there about five months and, the senior vice president of public sector. About 30 percent of the company. is the first time the public sector had made its number in a year. That first full quarter I was there, I get fired again. much. Yep. I said, ask these people, what do they think about Bill Sullivan? And a lot of them are friends and percent of them came back saying greatest guy. You should hire him. even the head of HR in an Oval on Patty. God love her. Thank you, Patty. she said, Bill Sullivan's a great leader. You should hire him. but Abbasi and Race came back and said, Sullivan had set up the situation at Informatica. And that he had profited as a result of his setting it up and they didn't trust me and wouldn't recommend my being hired and had been telling many people that exact story. And I sent you some of the report from that investigation firm, which attests to exactly what it was. despite having a recognition that the behavior predated my tenure at Informatica by two years, despite having the internal lawyer telling them that it was illegal and Sullivan's right, don't do it. They were then representing to the market that, I had set the whole thing up, which was fantastical anyway, because I wouldn't, then had no way of determining what were the Commercial sales levels of Informatica. retained that same lawyer, ready to for a lawsuit, found that, unless you can, prove that somebody didn't hire you. Or, fired you as a result of what they said, you, it's hard to claim damages. So I could spend a quarter million dollars on a lawsuit, come up with a 1 jury verdict. I won, I was defamed, but no way to prove it. it didn't seem like a declining return. A year went by, I became aware that they were speaking with my then CEO. At Denodo saying the same things, I ran the whole test again. Of course, I use the same group a second time. They, by this point, they knew what was going on the first time. Everybody thought I was paranoid and weird, but they were willing to take my money. The second time they were on side, same results, but again, not able to. prove that somebody, nobody's willing to go on a record and said, yeah, I spoke with Soheil Bilbassy or Charles Race and I fired Bill Sullivan as a result. but both gentlemen confirmed that, they'd been saying this to, different people in the market, including my then current CEO at Denodo, Charles Race even went so far as to say he chuckled and said, I hope Bill, made a lot of money because he's not going to work in this industry again.
Don Finley:Wow. Wow.
Bill Sullivan:Yeah. So that, people wonder why I've moved a lot over the last five years. It's because that's what was going on. and so that's part of the reason I've come forward now. fortunately, through friends, I've retained another attorney, former U. S. Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. has stepped into the case and he sent both individuals a letter saying, we know what you're doing. the practices predated Mr. Sullivan's tenure by two years. if it doesn't stop, we will be, acting affirmatively in Mr. Sullivan's interest. I'm again, at that situation where, Is it worth it to spend a quarter million dollars deposing half of Silicon Valley in order to win a 1 judgment? And so part of the reason I'm coming forward now is just to simply say, Hey, here's the fact set, here's what happened at Informatica. I've got all the emails. I am going to be putting them in a book, and let people decide for themselves because, for most people being the number one vice president at IBM or PeopleSoft Informatica would be a career making thing, but I've done all of them, repeatedly throughout. and the idea that I, I've interviewed with over 25 companies, not been able to find A. job and they all followed that same track where, I do four or five interviews, do the panel discussion. Bill, we love you. you've run sales forces at scale, P& L up to 300 million. You've run a team of lobbyists, DC, the national market, and then a few weeks goes by and they say, we're going to hire Bob down in Tallahassee because he used to work with our EVP. I'm tired of that game. And so now's an opportunity for me to tell my story.
Don Finley:and I'm glad that you're finally coming out and telling the story because I think there's two sides of this, as far as the impact that this has. One, it's not right for you to point out something that needs to be corrected. Get sidelined at the one company and then to go and do what objectively is the right thing of, blowing the whistle and then going through that process, which I believe was a four year process as well to be able to get, holding people accountable for what agreements they have in place and additionally to follow. what are the lessons that you would take out of this for others to, to embody if they're in a similar situation, like how would you hope that other people, are able to compose themselves in these matters?
Bill Sullivan:this area of the law is actually increasing, in interest because, there's a lot of this and I think in the coming weeks and months, there's going to be a lot of folks coming out with testimony about what the government did or did not do right. Nothing, not companies, but government, maybe some of the companies as well. I wholeheartedly encourage. the Justice Department to, ensure that, to take a better stance at protecting their whistleblowers. that's gonna have to be critical. and I'm tell also telling the story just to highlight the ob, the risks of being a whistleblower, it, whether you're in government or you're in industry, it's a risky thing. and again, part of my story and telling it, I think it was, transportation secretary, Raymond Donovan was charged with federal crimes. He famously just found not guilty. He went out in the front courts, the front steps of the courthouse. And he said, that's great. Now, where do I reclaim my reputation? And that's one of the lessons learned is sometimes you have to fight back to reclaim your reputation, and that may be, the situation with other whistleblowers coming forward. So it's been a, it's been a long, there's been there, and again, there's, you were right. You touched on that four year period. you talking about the personal side of things, my wife did not know. anything about this case that was going on. My closest friends did not know anything about this case that was going on. my priest and my bartender didn't know what was going on with the case. Now, fortunately, I've got some experience, keeping secrets. but I took steps to protect my family. But of course, since I couldn't tell them why I was doing that, they all thought I was crazy. you throw a hand
Don Finley:of those things that you shared in the first conversation we had that just blew my mind because it's an intensely stressful situation that you're going through, Like your reputation is on the line. you're doing the right thing. And at the same time, you're facing a lot of adversity through it. And so all of your support systems that you've built up over the years, the close personal relationships, and especially your spouse, not being able to share that with them just adds to the pressure of this. And so I could only imagine the craziness that they thought you were going through.
Bill Sullivan:Oh yeah. and again, on my LinkedIn page, I do a lot of open water swimming. is he a drug addict? Is he a drunk? Why? Why is he changing jobs so frequently? no. He's pretty healthy and his credit rating's above 800 and, he has still has the same wife and doesn't have a Porsche collection and doesn't do nose candy. But that is what has been going on and it's, it has been taxing, but, I think it's with this, my coming forward now, I think not only will it hopefully clear some of the questions about my character, my career, my background, but also help some additional, Whistleblowers to have some courage and to recognize these are the pitfalls, but you really have to do it.
Don Finley:Yeah. We've touched a bit on how your life's changed since leaving Informatica and blowing the whistle. and also, what others are looking to take similar stands. Where's the future for you?
Bill Sullivan:there's a few things I'm speaking with a few companies now, we'll see how they react to this discussion. But, I have started to tell people during the course of, interviews, look, this is something that happened and this is what's going on. So this shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. It's funny, an acquaintance of mine was just elected the, the GOP governor of the state of West Virginia. and West Virginia had his head pushed under water economically by previous administrations. I sent him a note. I would love to go be the drug czar for the state of West Virginia. That's a public policy thing that I would love to engage on. they're great people out there. It's one of our country's most beautiful states. They've been treated abysmally. in order to extract the energy from West Virginia, that is beautiful. they're going to have to get that under control. percent of kids under the age of 18 are being raised by their grandparents as a result of the opiate addiction in their, in families out there. So it's a really bad problem. I may go back and run a public sector group for a company. I may go into government in some form or fashion. I'll continue to do the things I love to do. Ride the Ducati and open water swim. And, I've got a whole host of friends. They don't realize how much they keep me sane. I've got a lot of friends. I can look them in the eyes and say, Hey man, I love you. And they love me. And, they don't know the whole backdrop behind what was been going on in my life. Most of them are going to be surprised by this interview. but, I meant it when I tell them. and, moving forward, I do hope to find some answers to some questions. it, why did the government, stretch this out for four years? They were, just a successful case. They highlighted it in the year end. why did they dive at the 11th hour from a 60 to$80 million fine, down to$21 million fine. that was a shock to my attorneys, as well. and the other thing that's interesting is. None of the informatica executives that have since been. defaming me, have ever been held personally accountable. Now, again, Martha Stewart went to jail over for 14 months or four months at a federal prison, over a 224, 000 stock trade. these executives materially misrepresented hundreds or millions, tens of millions of dollars in a publicly traded company. Company paid a 21 million dollar fine and everybody else skated free. So how did that happen? so there's, there are still some open questions in front of us that, I believe people are looking at, but, we'll see.
Don Finley:that's fantastic. more just in general, I know we've been talking about your story. what advice would you give? What advice would you have for people who are just in general, you have such a diverse career and strong leadership skills that I do want to touch on like you as that person who builds organizations and changes of the world in that capacity, like what bit of inspiration could you leave us with?
Bill Sullivan:do it just for the money. Okay. Technology, when I first got into it, it was fun. Sybase was great. Some college professors introduced some great technology. Back then, technology was the province of the pocket calculator crowd and Wall Street, they weren't that interested. When you look at it now and seven companies, technology companies are powering the market, the dynamic has flipped and that really has not been to the benefit. arguable whether or not it's been the benefit of the industry or not. But yeah, we have a 90 percent failure rate in companies simply because they got dollar bill signs in our eyes and the best technology doesn't win. The best execution wins. Don't lose sight of the fact you need to have people around you that can bring your great idea to market and scale it. And either take it public or sell it. everybody wants to be Larry Ellison. There's only one Larry Ellison. You're not it. Okay. And so that's the first thing. The second thing is to recognize, and this is very humbling in the technology industry, You don't know everything. The people that are, can learn fast do best, again, if you knew everything about mainframes, that was almost a hindrance when client server hit, people that are working in the cloud, they look back on the internet and say, yeah, isn't that cute. I will tell you there's going to be something after the cloud. It'll probably be the intersection of AI and quantum computing, and it's not going to be wearable devices. It's going to be, I'm not entirely sure what it is. I'm not a futurist. I'm much more of an executioner. I And learn quickly. And then finally, just, don't lose your sense of self, it, you can get into situations. Like I say, tell the truth, first rule of bills rules, particularly in public sector, people can do bad things and get everybody into trouble. tell the truth first and foremost to yourself and also to the, to, to the bigger, the broader world.
Don Finley:I think at some point we may want to have you back on to go over your rules.
Bill Sullivan:Okay.
Don Finley:Let's like, let's hold that for a future show, but I
Bill Sullivan:I would be honored.
Don Finley:Bill, once again, thank you so much for spending the time today to talk to us. I like, really appreciate this, and you've been such a good person to get to know over the last few weeks and months, but additionally, I love your story and I'm really excited to be a part of this chapter. and speaking of chapters, we're going to put a link to your book in the description. So if anybody's interested in diving deeper into this story, they'll know where to get your book at.
Bill Sullivan:Don, I'm grateful for your having me on the show. I've watched a number of your episodes. as I said, before we started, I think you and I have good simpatico and I appreciate your kindness and your welcoming me onto your program.
Don Finley:Not a problem, my friend. Thank you for tuning into The Human Code, sponsored by FINdustries, where we harness AI to elevate your business. By improving operational efficiency and accelerating growth, we turn opportunities into reality. Let FINdustries be your guide to AI mastery, making success inevitable. Explore how at FINdustries. co.
